The two neighbors drifting apart linguistically
Le Monde daily newspaper addresses the decline of French and German as foreign languages in both Germany and France. “The bad news is that co-operation is going through difficult times. There is the recurring issue of French teaching in Germany and of German teaching in France being both in parallel decline for all the promises repeated with each summit. … Even deserving efforts in border areas often result in failure, as the students' parents tend to favor English when choosing a first foreign language [for their children]. … Don't count on cultural institutes to compensate for the school system's failures, since they, on both sides of the Rhine, have been hit by budget cuts ordered by overscrupulous accountants in foreign affairs ministries' budget departments. The network of French cultural institutes in Germany has shrunk to next to nothing in the last few years, while the Goethe Institutes in France have fallen prey to similar belt-tightening measures.”
3 years ago
18 comments:
"Even deserving efforts in border areas often result in failure,"
I have been informed that often when people whose first language is different converse in a third like English they communicate better in general than a native English speaker with someone who speaks English as a second language. The non-native English speakers don't use confusing turns of phases and figures of speech that are prevalent in the speech of people whose mother tongue is English.
As such it might actually be harder to facilitate mutual language learning at border regions since the use of English is both useful abroad and as a neutral mutual language between the neighboring communities.
L'anglais est la langue des homosexuels et des non-Européens.
"des homosexuels et des non-Européens."
So that's almost everyone right?
"So that's almost everyone right?"
LOL.
I have been informed that often when people whose first language is different converse in a third like English they communicate better in general than a native English speaker with someone who speaks English as a second language. The non-native English speakers don't use confusing turns of phases and figures of speech that are prevalent in the speech of people whose mother tongue is English.
I wonder if this the source of the "Globish" referred to in the BBC article Unfrench posted after this one?
Indeed. Nerrière for instance is peddling his rarefied version of Globish as a form of English that doesn't put English native speakers at an advantage. Yet global professionals will always strive for a mastery of English that goes beyond Globish. Even South-East Asians, Chinese and Japanese will eventually speak fluent English. It is just a matter of time. In the process, English grammar and pronunciation will be greatly simplified as its speaker base expands, but its vocabulary will grow, not shrink. In this Nerrière will be proved wrong.
Re: Edward J. Cunningham,
Right. The reduction of complexity is certainly one of the primary benefits of the Globish project and by providing a quicker "return on investment" by giving the learner a greater ability to communicate with more people sooner it probably makes the process of learning English (at least a working version) initially much faster.
Yes, but people will never limit their active vocabulary to 1,500 words. It just is too awkward for useful communication. In any case, it is very French: 17th-century purisme also sought to limit vocabulary for the sake of clarity. Yet, all it did is give an advantage to English over French.
The Japanese have a long ways to go before most of their people is fluent in English. I remember reading some study which said that amongst all East Asian countries, only North Korea has a lower proficiency in English. The language barrier in Japan is higher than in France, but the Japanese don't begrudge Americans (that much) for the dominance of English or blame gaijin for not being fluent in Japanese when they get off the plane. That's probably a big reason why America has better relations with Japan than with France.
"That's probably a big reason why America has better relations with Japan than with France."
Japanese never was much of a lingua franca. The French are prisoners of their own glorious history.
In a "United States of Europe," everyone should speak at least three languages. Why is it perfectly acceptable for most Europeans to learn only English as a foreign language? Why should only the graduates of elite European business schools be encouraged to know at least three languages.
Regarding border areas, the fact that Alsace is no longer bilingual French/German is sad. Do the Alsacians really understand what they are losing by speaking only French and some English? Do the French understand that they are limiting their access to the German economy, and that they are locking themselves out of Eastern Europe (where English and German are the most popular foreign languages).
"Regarding border areas, the fact that Alsace is no longer bilingual French/German is sad. Do the Alsacians really understand what they are losing by speaking only French and some English? Do the French understand that they are limiting their access to the German economy, and that they are locking themselves out of Eastern Europe (where English and German are the most popular foreign languages)."
Wait a minute, anonymous! Nobody ever said that Alsace no longer is bilingual. A lot of Alsatians are still bilingual, yet Alsace is but a small part of France and Alsatian dialects are very different from Standard High German. The story from Eurotopics that I posted does mention the failure of "deserving efforts" in border areas, but there are many border areas than just Alsace. I think on the French side there is a failure to teach Standard German in Alsace and Lorraine, while on the German side of the border, the knowledge of French has shrunk to next to nothing, even among the so-called "Bildungseliten" (cultural elites). You'll have a harder time finding someone who can speak French in Baden-Württemberg than in Berlin. I am speaking from personal experience. The overall picture is that even French and German academics must now rely on their mastery of the English language to communicate with each other.
In Alsace, the many immigrants from North-Africa or Italy have failed to learn both the Alsatian dialect and Standard German. They have only learned French. Yet many of the ethnic Alsatians have retained a good knowledge of Alsatian and they often cross the border to Germany or Switzerland. There they can speak Alsatian and the Germans and the Swiss understand them, and they understand the Swiss and the Germans too because Swabian and Swiss dialects are close to Alsatian. It is a mixed picture. Across the board, English of course is making inroads everywhere, but this is to be expected: almost everybody studies or has studied English at school these days, so everybody expects everybody else to have at least some knowledge of English. People and things travel more and more so that English is needed more and more, and there is no end of this in sight.
You can't force the majority of the inhabitants of Europe to learn German, English and French. Most people will follow the path of least resistance and learn just what they really need, which in most cases will be their local language and English. The push for trilingualism and language diversity from many pro-EU quarters is purely utopian. A lot of languages are now dying around the world. You can say it is due to globalization, but they would not be dying if their native speakers didn't them die. Who are we to mourn over the loss of those tongues? After all, languages are no living things. People are. Let them decide.
Substitute "didn't LET them die" in my previous comment.
Edward wrote: "The Japanese have a long ways to go before most of their people is fluent in English. I remember reading some study which said that amongst all East Asian countries, only North Korea has a lower proficiency in English. The language barrier in Japan is higher than in France, but the Japanese don't begrudge Americans (that much) for the dominance of English or blame gaijin for not being fluent in Japanese when they get off the plane. That's probably a big reason why America has better relations with Japan than with France."
English has a long way to go in Japan, but it is definitely on the rise there:
link
English is a compulsory subject in Japanese schools. In fact, it is the only foreign languages that the vast majority of Japanese schools provide. All Japanese people now have at least 6 years of English at school, and 4 more years if they go to university. It is now common for Japanese parents to make their children learn English from the age of 5 or 6 in English schools or juku. Japan certainly has more private English conversation schools per square meter than anywhere else on earth.
This does not mean that most Japanese can speak English. But the number of English speakers is increasing. In 2003 alone, approximately 1.5 million Japanese took the TOEIC test. Their results show that a high percentage of test sitters have at least a daily conversation level of English. Japanese companies often ask for
TOEIC scores among qualifications, so learning English has become a national sport in Japan. This at least show a desire of a great number of Japanese to be able to speak English. No other foreign language has such an important place as English among language learners in Japan (although a substantial minority learns Chinese, Korean, French, Italian or German too).
I understand that many Germans are quietly upset that the Alsacians no longer speak Alsacian nor standard German:
http://www.vds-ev.de/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=2368&page=0
(If you wish to read the above link in English, copy the link into google, then click "translate.")
Is the most widely spoken language in Europe (German) in danger? Is it suffering the same fate as French?
Is it safe to assume that the worldwide decline of the French language does not put German speaking countries at any advantage - not even in Europe. Conversely, is it safe to assume that the worldwide decline of German does give France any strategic advantage in Europe.
Your thoughts?
To the last poster: it is not true at all that Alsatians no longer speak German. A lot of them still do. I have relatives in Alsace. All of them speak fluent Standard German. I did meet Alsatians that were unable to speak German but they were mostly the descendants of immigrants. Elsässer-Ditsch is in a much more enviable situation than is the rest of France's local languages and dialects because Alsace's younger generations have more economic incentives to learn the local language due to the fact that neighboring Switzerland and Germany both speak German and that these countries' job markets are more attractive than Alsace's or France's is (it is not only Switzerland, Baden-Württemberg also boasts of a thriving economy).
So, in conclusion, yes, Alsatian is in decline, but there is no need to exaggerate. There is still much more German spoken in Alsace than French in Baden-Württemberg (French waas never traditionally spoken by ordinary people in Baden-Württemberg).
While German and French recede, Spanish, English, Arabic and Turkish are expanding. This, I believe, is a good way to sum up the current language trends in Europe.
Not learning the language of the neighboring country can be problematic. I am glad that not all the young people move to Paris in order to have a better career. Some people actually do want to stay in Alsace and also travel to Germany or to Switzerland for work.
I understand the reasons why language should not matter - anyone on either side of Saarlouis can speak English to communicate across borders. Imagine if regions with minority languages such as Breton and Alsace-Lorraine were to separate from France. English would have more value as a secondary language than French!
But how should the "English is all you need" system work in places such as Sudtirol. Should the ethnic Germans and the Italians in Bozen/Bolzano speak English to each other instead of learning the regional languages.
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